gaijinmark wrote:

That is so true! For example, just above every song I've ever heard for "ashita" they always stretch it out pronouncing it more like "asheeta" There's lots of other examples as well. Used to drive me crazy.

Hence one should listen to more than just Jpop (or anime, or dramas, or news, etc) if you're learning Japanese. Vary you input and you'll be able to understand from most sources (given time).

Granted, this is not a short term suggestion. If you've studied 1000 hours (roughly 2 hours a day for 18 months) you should have watched or listened to about 3000 to 5,000 hours of Japanese music, news, dramas, anime, etc in that time (roughly 6 to 10 hours a day). Hopefully you've also read the equivalent of 5 to 10 novels (think 1000 pages, so blogs, newspapers, manga, books count).

Now the above is to be at a native level of listening and understanding. It's easy if you think about it as it's a build up over time.

kokuou wrote:

While some of your advice is sound, much of it is terribly incorrect in terms of second language acquisition theory.

Hey dude, long time!
I do agree with you on this one.

kokuou wrote:

Watching anime/drama and listening to Japanese music right from the get-go could actually be more of a hindrance than help. Japanese spoken on TV (and ESPECIALLY in anime) is not the best way to go about learning Japanese. Not only is anime Japanese significantly different than everyday spoken Japanese, it's much harder to learn grammatical functions when they're slurred or spoken in slang.

Yes indeed. When I first started to learn Japanese on my own (age 8) was by anime mainly. Later, did I learn that whatever I learned was basically crap in the real world. Sure, I learned some words here or there, however the 'crap' (low level/rude) words I've learned would not suit me in the real world. So I decided to look elsewhere.

kokuou wrote:

Learning a language also requires interactive feedback; that is, when I say something or hear something, I need to hear a response from the other party that has relevance to what I just said/wrote/heard.

And as Kokuou said, I found me Japanese (from Japan) friends. Now these guys couldn't speak much English, nor was I as good as Japanese as I thought, at the time. However, we both did our best to teach one another the opposite language and by god did it work. Silly as it may sound, but it DOES work.
In my case, when there is a lack of communication, you learn to teach the other party your language, and vice versa. 'Survival method', per say.
That was my case, however.

Kokuou wrote:

Getting books (such as Genki! or other textbooks) that come with either audio tapes (especially made for learning Japanese) or computer learning programs are by far the best option for learning any language. Don't get me wrong, Japanese music and dramas may be a great supplementary tool to the main tool being used for learning, but they should be avoided as one's main source of learning Japanese.

Agreed. Trust me on this. It took me years of UNLEARNING Japanese from TV shows and anime that I learned from in order to get me to the Japanese proficiency that I am now.
Unlearning old habits is a lot harder than learning new ones.

Kokuou wrote:

Lastly, suggesting that someone learn Hiragana and Katakana AFTER learning kanji is just plain bad advice, as is suggesting that one could learn all 1945 joyo kanji in only three months.

Haha. Couldn't help but laugh at this.
True that Kokuou, true that.

ahochaude wrote:

When I first started to learn Japanese on my own (age 8) was by anime mainly. Later, did I learn that whatever I learned was basically crap in the real world. Sure, I learned some words here or there, however the 'crap' (low level/rude) words I've learned would not suit me in the real world. So I decided to look elsewhere.

Agreed, one should not learn a language solely from cartoons. Now that that strawman is knocked down, again. Let's bring back the reminder that one should watch all types of Japanese entertainment. But let's say you only had anime, in order to follow it without sub-titles (I'm assuming you got to that point, right?) you learn lots of useless words (well, useless in that it applies only to that anime), but 95% of the vocabulary needed to follow that anime would apply to ANY aspect of Japanese.

ahochaude wrote:

And as Kokuou said, I found me Japanese (from Japan) friends. Now these guys couldn't speak much English, nor was I as good as Japanese as I thought, at the time. However, we both did our best to teach one another the opposite language and by god did it work. Silly as it may sound, but it DOES work. In my case, when there is a lack of communication, you learn to teach the other party your language, and vice versa. 'Survival method', per say. That was my case, however.

Aye, one needs a method for on the spot correction of any mistakes. Now, it may have worked in your case. However, it's a bit useless to suggest something few people have access to, namely a Japanese person that's willing to do a 50-50 language exchange.

ahochaude wrote:

Agreed. Trust me on this. It took me years of UNLEARNING Japanese from TV shows and anime that I learned from in order to get me to the Japanese proficiency that I am now. Unlearning old habits is a lot harder than learning new ones.

Out of interest, how long have you been studying Japanese? If you began at 8, I can assure you that getting rid of habits you pick up as a child is part of the growing process. But again, I'll reiterate, it's about getting variety. You're using movies, anime, dramas, newspapers, news, etc. to reinforce your learning.

ahochaude wrote:

Kokuou wrote: Lastly, suggesting that someone learn Hiragana and Katakana AFTER learning kanji is just plain bad advice, as is suggesting that one could learn all 1945 joyo kanji in only three months. Haha. Couldn't help but laugh at this. True that Kokuou, true that.

At two hours a day, it took me about 4 months to be able to recognize, write and know the basic meaning of 2042 kanji (all the jouyou plus some). Based on accounts of others, if you went 8 hours a day, you'd be done in a month. Basically, it'll be 200 hours of study which is equivalent of an upper level 5 credit hour course in college.

With this in my pocket, I was able to begin learning to read and write in Japanese in addition to listening and speaking Japanese. I can watch Japanese shows in Japanese with Japanese subtitles. I can read Manga. As I found it very useful, I gave that as my advice. Yeah, it's not "studying" but I getting reinforcement via the written word.

Now, as you're offering advice: what's your advice to improve the literacy of a person learning Japanese? Cause honestly, I can't imagine telling the equivalent of someone learning English "Don't bother to read, just go off sounds and you'll be ok". Trust me, if all you have going for you is kana and 300 kanji, you're essentially illiterate in Japanese.

Not thru anime: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=_rQFfRN6qmA&feature=channel

But he does have a nice hat

i am currently studying Japanese by memorizing some Hiragana. I am not sure if it will help a whole lot for my trip, but just getting familiar with some Kanji might help too, the cities written in Kanji. I doubt i will even memorize a dozen or more kanji within a few months. I am also reading up from a book on Japanese grammar, and i will practice basic Japanese conversation but i have very limited vocabulary, comprehension.

I think it might take years before i feel like i know a good amount of Japanese, i figure i'd start somewhere.

If it helps, I'm following the AJATT method (http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog) to learn Japanese. You first learn to recognize the +-2000 official Kanji using the "Remembering the Kanji" book from James Heisig (and yes: we know the first volume doesn't teach you the readings immediatly - this will come later in the sentences part). Afterwards you learn your Kana (Hiragana & Katakana). When reading: try NOT to read the Romaji, only if you didn't really understand some text.

After you recognize the Japanese script, you start mining sentences and learn those using an SRS (Kanji > Kana). You can get sentences from Kanji Odyssey 2001, websites (like iKnow, japanesepod101, ...), even japanese dramas or Japanese movies.

One of the best SRS is the free ANKI: http://ichi2.net/anki/

A good website to learn those Kanji (together with the RTK book: http://www.kanji.koohii.com/main.php).

It's also very important to listen a lot to Japanese audio's, like songs, dramas and movies. A scientific proven way to improve understanding of Japanese because it makes already lot's of connections in your brain, EVEN if do not understand it.

You do not really need to learn grammar, but you can read of course some good information and explanations here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/

I'm doing it this way that's why I'm looking for lots of j-drama there are a lot of people following this AJATT concept now.[/url]

Dakoina wrote:

If it helps, I'm following the AJATT method (http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog) to learn Japanese. You first learn to recognize the +-2000 official Kanji using the "Remembering the Kanji" book from James Heisig (and yes: we know the first volume doesn't teach you the readings immediatly - this will come later in the sentences part). Afterwards you learn your Kana (Hiragana & Katakana). When reading: try NOT to read the Romaji, only if you didn't really understand some text. After you recognize the Japanese script, you start mining sentences and learn those using an SRS (Kanji > Kana). You can get sentences from Kanji Odyssey 2001, websites (like iKnow, japanesepod101, ...), even japanese dramas or Japanese movies. One of the best SRS is the free ANKI: http://ichi2.net/anki/ A good website to learn those Kanji (together with the RTK book: http://www.kanji.koohii.com/main.php). It's also very important to listen a lot to Japanese audio's, like songs, dramas and movies. A scientific proven way to improve understanding of Japanese because it makes already lot's of connections in your brain, EVEN if do not understand it. You do not really need to learn grammar, but you can read of course some good information and explanations here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ I'm doing it this way that's why I'm looking for lots of j-drama there are a lot of people following this AJATT concept now.[/url]

I was going to ask if anyone had tested this method, but a research brought me on this topic. After I finish my degree I would like starting to learn Japanese serisously, do you have good results so far with the ajatt method ?

What the guy who wrote the method achieved is really impressive, but I wonder whether it just work on everyone or is this method especially suitable for him, his way of learning.

Still I wish I could learn to speak fluent japanese and to read japanese as quickly as he did ( less than 2 years)
_________________

Garp_is_dead wrote:

I was going to ask if anyone had tested this method, but a research brought me on this topic. After I finish my degree I would like starting to learn Japanese serisously, do you have good results so far with the ajatt method ? What the guy who wrote the method achieved is really impressive, but I wonder whether it just work on everyone or is this method especially suitable for him, his way of learning. Still I wish I could learn to speak fluent japanese and to read japanese as quickly as he did ( less than 2 years)

Yes, I've used the AJATT method with some variants. You learn to write and recognise 2000 Kanji (~200 hours), get basic vocabulary and grammar via sentences (2700 sentences, ~400 hours). During this time, you begin to notice you understand more and more Japanese because you're always watching, reading or listening to it. After that though you can "mine" the material you're watching and reading to further round out your Japanese.

Here's the warning: It's not about doing it in 2 years. It's about the number of productive hours you use. Just the buy in is 600 hours of active studying (it can be less, each of us take different paths). Then there's hundreds of more hours of active studying after that to create fluency. Toss on thousands of hours of listening/watching Japanese on top of reading thousands of pages of Japanese. Doing all that will make you pretty fluent in Japanese. The thing is: Can you manage your time to do it in 2 years?

HEY! im newbie! im xheril from the Philippines! whew! i admit. bcoz of my love for GOKUSEN and some jdorama shows, i just want to learn NIPONGGO. yeah! i need some tutor..ahe.

-xhe-

That's Nihon-go.

bmwracer wrote:

That's Nihon-go.

Perhaps Nihongokusen?

Takoyama wrote:

Perhaps Nihongokusen?

Yeeech.

bmwracer wrote:

That's Nihon-go.

Or, in past tense, Nihon-went. o_O
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

Id highly suggest taking a class to kind of get the basis of how Japanese works, then go to Japan!! Nothing wrosk better than being forced to speak japanese

kokuou wrote:

Or, in past tense, Nihon-went. o_O

LOL.

Very punny.

I've been studying for 6 years but never really had any interest in anime, manga, jpop, jdrama, or any of that stuff until recently. I only really started learning Japanese because of my job. So, I think I'm the polar opposite of most of you, who seem to be interested in anime and jdrama, and want to learn Japanese as a result.

I've been taking the JLPT tests for the past few years and passed levels 4, 3, and 2. Once I passed the level 2 and had been to Japan several times on business trips, I realized that my reading and writing is great (I'm starting to read novels now), and my listening and speaking is terrible.

Basically, I was only working with written Japanese (mostly in textbooks), and that was a big mistake in hindsight. My kanji was awesome and my speaking was laughable.

Going in the opposite direction (all speaking/listening, no reading/writing) is just as big of a mistake. For many reasons (homonyms, mostly) trying to learn Japanese purely from a speaking/listening perspective is almost impossible. There just aren't enough unique sounds in the Japanese syllabry, so often words with the same pronunciation will have very different meanings. For example, �����ǂ� "koudou" can mean �s���Fbehavior/action, �u���Flecture hall, �B���Fcoal pit, or �����Fpublic road, depending on what kanji are used. In my opinion, you NEED a proper balance or the spoken and written language to be successful.

For the last year or so, I've been watching some jdrama, anime, and reading manga to get my knowledge of spoken Japanese up to the level of my written Japanese. Manga is by far the best because it represents real, spoken Japanese and is also conducive to learning new words by looking them up in a dictionary.

I'm taking the JLPT level 1 (top level) this December and applying to grad school in Japan in 2010.

Anyways, here are my suggestions for learning Japanese:

FIRST:
Take a beginner-level Japanese course and make sure that the teacher is actually from Japan. It helps if they speak little to no English. Avoid romaji like the plague and go for a text that uses all Japanese script (The "Genki" series is very good for this). Once you are done with Genki I and II, you are probably ready to start learning on your own.

WRITING/READING (self-study):
I would recommend using "Remembering the Kanji" and "Kanji in Context" simultaneously. "Remembering the Kanji" gives you a great method for using mnemonics to remember the characters, and "Kanji in Context" teaches you the relevant vocabulary for that kanji. The kanji are presented in a different order in each book, so follow the Heisig order and then cross-reference to the Kanji in Context book. Once you have completed this (it took me about 2 years), you willl have a solid level of Japanese understanding and cuold probably pass a Japanese university entrance exam.

GRAMMAR (self-study):
Use textbooks like Genki to start. After that, I'd suggest getting the Unicom JLPT grammar books. They are written entirely in Japanese, with no English translations. All explanations are written in Japanese, so it's a great way to immerse yourself in the language. Japanese grammar is very different from western languages, so it's actually BETTER that there is no English translation - trying to force a one-to-one equivalent phrase in English will just confuse you.

LISTENING/SPEAKING:
This is where I'm trying to improve. Watching drama or anime is kind of pointless until you've gotten a vocabulary of 5000 words and a decent handle on grammar. Until then, I'd suggest using textbooks or test prep books that come with CDs and speaking along with the CDs whenever possible. After you've passed the JLPT level 3 or 2 you can probably actually learn something from watching Japanese TV.

GENERAL TIPS:
- Never, ever use romaji. Ever. It just slows you down. It's like trying to learn music theory while wearing earplugs.
- Use kanji, even the hard ones, with every vocabulary flashcard from day 1. Even if you don't know the meaning of each individual character, you will begin to recognize the shapes from repetition. Yes, "daijoubu" (���v) literally means "big manly person" or "big husband." Get over it. Sometimes the kanji meanings will actually help you remember the word, like "chikatetsu" �n���S = "iron under ground" = "subway."
- When you look up words, I highly recommend Yahoo's online dictionary (http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/). It gives you free access to the
�v���O���b�V�u�a�p�����T, which has a TON of great example sentences.
- If you have no knowledge of Japanese, PLEASE stop writing stuff like "daijoubu," "sugoi," and "maji de?" on forums like this one. It's so unbelievably annoying. That's just a personal request. ...and sorry for just breaking my own rule.

Well, that's my perspective. I hope it helps you as you start your Japanese studies.

Cheers thesleeve!

Great tips - after a two-year hiatus I have gotten myself a Japanese tutour and we use Genki.

We started to use Hiragana and Katakana (plus the first Kanjis) exclusively after lesson 3 and it's scary but agreed, it's the best (only) way.

One thing I disagree a little with is teachers who speak little to no English, at least in the very beginning. I started Japanese classes in Japan and my teachers spoke no English. The thing was, I was an absolute beginner, an MBA-exchange student coming from a Spanish Business school who had just read one or two books on Japan. We progressed very very slowly and wasted a lot of time (and my money) with me guessing what we were actually talking about.

I might be a polar opposite too (although being able to read mangas when they come out is a nice bonus), because it has something to do with my current job (I am responsible for Asia markting at my company) and in the long-term I want to be able to relocate to Asia or work close to the Asian market.

Good luck with your grad school application. With your dedication, I am sure you get in.

thank you for sharing your experiences in learning Japanese Language...
_________________

Sound advice thesleeve. I always advocate using an Spaced Repetition System of some sort, usually Anki, when learning. No point in forgetting what you learn, right?

For the teachers, I think it's best for beginners to have both a native Japanese that knows English well and a native English speaker that knows Japanese. Both understand the difficulties of each language and can put across ideas based on their own problems they experienced. The point of teaching is to efficiently get the information across. Just my opinion, not the rule of law.

Good skills to you during your JLPT.

Hi EstherM and Nukemarine.

I see what you mean about the teacher knowing English (or Spanish, etc...) being helpful. However, when I was an absolute beginner, I took my first class at Penn State University (in the US) and my teacher spoke only Japanese, even on the very first day of class. For the first few days it was pretty difficult, but she would basically let the book (Genki) teach us the vocabulary and grammar (it had some great explanations) and would act more as our listening/conversation/immersion coach. In other words, if you didn't read the lesson before coming to class, you wouldn't understand a word of it. The funny thing is that our teacher Sakura-sensei (cool name, huh?) spoke perfect English, but refused to speak a word of it during the class period. Very interesting method, and it worked pretty well!

I actually just got back from having dinner with a former Japanese teacher in Boston at a very authentic Japanese restaurant. All of the customers were speaking Japanese - we were too - so it was a nice 2 hour immersion in "little Japan"!