^ Wow, look who's back...

Geezer wrote:

Wynter, The Shinsengumi were at times, The Emperor's Bodyguards, A Death Squad, Vigalantes, The Shogun's bully boys... They were a bunch of poor, small time, country Samurai who came to the big city, looking to make some money, and hoping for the chance to be "real" Samurai, after 250 years of peace. In one of the most turbulent periods of Japanese history, they were a ping pong ball bobbing and floating on the surface of the ocean during a gale. From one day to the next they never really knew who's side they were on... because no one really knew what was going on. The reason I didn't think much of the series was the spin the writers and producers decided to take with it. They wanted to make it sort of a happy go lucky Three Musketeers cum Tragic Hero saga. Whereas the Shinsengumi were basically a Death Squad. It was a bit too large a step for me. But the show did have a pistol of a cast.

Geez, this sums up what I've been feeling while watching. The Shinsengumi seem a little lost when it comes to their own mission statement. I always thought they were "bad" until I started watching this series, where everything is glorified. However, the part I'm at now shows a very ugly side to their group.

I'm really finding it hard to understand the character of Kondo. It seems like he's always being pushed around, and he's very much swayed by anything he hears. When do his actual leadership traits kick in?

Kijinnmaru wrote:

Just to add to what's been already mentioned, the Shogunate was actually also against opening Japan to foreigners; they just knew it was impossible to do that, unlike the emperor who never left his palace. The intent of allowing it was to modernize until they could force foreign powers out. The opposing factions used that as an excuse to illegitimize the Shogunate for their own power grab(while dealing with foreign powers themselves). My feelings for the show are similar to Geezer's, but I also found it to be written as an obvious vehicle for the lead actor, Shingo, who is quite possibly one of the worst actors the entertainment world has ever crapped out. The blatantness of that just made it painful to watch.

Yea, I was a bit confused about the Shogun's perspective, but the taiga later cleared that up for me. As for Shingo, I really liked him in the beginning of the show, but because of his passive character, I'm starting to get annoyed. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's the worst actor. He's 100 times better than some of the ones I've seen in other dramas.

shin2 wrote:

With the Shinsengumi story, accuracy is in the eye of the beholder. With the Taiga series you're watching, many of the events did in fact happen. How these events were interpreted in the series however, is open to much debate. There is a schism regarding the historical truth about the Shinsengumi --some believe they were true patriots who were ardent defenders of Japanese society; others believe they were thugs and murderers who were only interested in benefitting themselves.

But no one can be sure, eh? I can see both sides in the taiga right now (around epi 32) and although it's fascinating, I'm getting a little frustrated. What is the purpose of the Shinsengumi?
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Wynter wrote:

What is the purpose of the Shinsengumi?

Watching Atsu-hime, some of the events that lead the decline of the Tokugawa Era and onward into the Meiji Restoration is now more understandable. So I recommend watching this series to grasp a better understanding of this transition.

Basically, Japan was split when it came to opening its borders, versus keeping everything status quo. The Tokugawa bafuku wanted things to stay the same. Back in Kyoto, the Emperor wanted to gain back its status of power it lost when the Warring Era of the 1500s started. In short, the Emperor did gain back his power, which eventually led to Japan working with the U.S. and other nations in opening its borders and allowing importing/exporting. As Atsu-hime revealed, the marriage between the Emperor's sister and Tenshoin's son contributed to the two side working together.

Placing the Shinsegumi into the situation, the group supported the Emperor, and eventually assisted him in gaining back his power and divinity. That's basically the group's purpose in history. As you watch the series, Kondo runs into people such as Sakamoto Ryoma, who worked with Katsu Kaishu in establishing the imperial navy. While Kondo wanted nothing but to protect Kyoto, Ryoma had a much bigger agenda. This is why I think, as others explained earlier, Kondo and Co. were nothing but really dumb farmer hicks, and were allowed to be taken advantage.

As you look at the various taiga dramas, you'll find that shows such as Ryoma den (will be in the 2010 edition), Atsu-hime (2008) and Shinsengumi! (2004) all together explain the transition to the Meiji Restoration. This is why I think it is very important that people watch several of these series - to gain knowledge as told by different storytellers of the events that happened during this period.

--- groink

groink wrote:

Watching Atsu-hime, some of the events that lead the decline of the Tokugawa Era and onward into the Meiji Restoration is now more understandable. So I recommend watching this series to grasp a better understanding of this transition. Basically, Japan was split when it came to opening its borders, versus keeping everything status quo. The Tokugawa bafuku wanted things to stay the same. Back in Kyoto, the Emperor wanted to gain back its status of power it lost when the Warring Era of the 1500s started. In short, the Emperor did gain back his power, which eventually led to Japan working with the U.S. and other nations in opening its borders and allowing importing/exporting. As Atsu-hime revealed, the marriage between the Emperor's sister and Tenshoin's son contributed to the two side working together. Placing the Shinsegumi into the situation, the group supported the Emperor, and eventually assisted him in gaining back his power and divinity. That's basically the group's purpose in history. As you watch the series, Kondo runs into people such as Sakamoto Ryoma, who worked with Katsu Kaishu in establishing the imperial navy. While Kondo wanted nothing but to protect Kyoto, Ryoma had a much bigger agenda. This is why I think, as others explained earlier, Kondo and Co. were nothing but really dumb farmer hicks, and were allowed to be taken advantage. As you look at the various taiga dramas, you'll find that shows such as Ryoma den (will be in the 2010 edition), Atsu-hime (2008) and Shinsengumi! (2004) all together explain the transition to the Meiji Restoration. This is why I think it is very important that people watch several of these series - to gain knowledge as told by different storytellers of the events that happened during this period. --- groink

Wow, thank you very much. I way always under the impression that the Shinsengumi were supporters of the Shogun.

I have Atsu-Hime and plan to watch it (I'm a huge fan of Aoi-chan's), but it's good to know that it links a bit with Shinsengumi -- at least in some of the events that form the plot.

Thanks for the clarification and recommendations.
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I've found Atsu-hime to be really helpful in my understanding of that period in Japanese history (which I have very little knowledge of). I guess I should watch some of the other Taigas also... it's just a shame they have so many episodes although I guess they need them to tell the story properly.

Anime Dad wrote:

I've found Atsu-hime to be really helpful in my understanding of that period in Japanese history (which I have very little knowledge of). I guess I should watch some of the other Taigas also... it's just a shame they have so many episodes although I guess they need them to tell the story properly.

Well, I managed to find Gohatto and When the Last Sword is Drawn, the two movies Shin recommended. Gohatto is finished DLing and the other is in the process. I'll send you both.
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Wynter wrote:

Well, I managed to find Gohatto and When the Last Sword is Drawn, the two movies Shin recommended. Gohatto is finished DLing and the other is in the process. I'll send you both.

Arigatou gozaimasu!

Anime Dad wrote:

Arigatou gozaimasu!

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Wynter wrote:

I just finished epi 33 of Shinsengumi. I did NOT like that episode at all.

IIRC

Click on button to reveal/hide spoiler:

That's the one where Yamanami has to commit seppuku. Yeah, that's pretty intense, but there's the scene after Sawa Suzuki talks to him for the last time and when she turns to the other guy and says, "Those are death clothes aren't they?" and we realize she knew all along what was happening. Really great job by her in that scene.

Wynter wrote:

Wow, thank you very much. I way always under the impression that the Shinsengumi were supporters of the Shogun.

They were, at least as a group. In their early years in Kyoto they were charged with guarding certain gates of the imperial palace & enjoyed some imperial favor, but they were funded and answerable to the shogunate via the daimyo of Aizu, Matsudaira Katamori, a powerful shogunate supporter. The problem comes with the factions within the Shinsengumi itself, some members (such as Ito Kashitaro) having ideas similar to intellectuals siding with the Imperialists. (In Ito's case, it's just as much, if not more, a matter of finding a place to promote his ideas.)

Actually, the entire bakumatsu period is extremely problematic and impossible to explain in a nutshell... absolutely nothing is black and white. There were so many changes going on in just about every aspect of society, changes that had been brewing decades before, and the West's demands for port rights only complicated them further and brought things to a head when the Shogun granted access against the Emperor's wishes. It's a fascinating period and makes the US Civil War seem simplistic by comparison.

gaijinmark wrote:

IIRC Click on button to reveal/hide spoiler: That's the one where Yamanami has to commit seppuku. Yeah, that's pretty intense, but there's the scene after Sawa Suzuki talks to him for the last time and when she turns to the other guy and says, "Those are death clothes aren't they?" and we realize she knew all along what was happening. Really great job by her in that scene.

Yes it was!

Click on button to reveal/hide spoiler:

It was because of her that I actually started crying. I wasn't prepared to cry, so the tears actually stung my dry eyes. She really was wonderful, albeit her role is such a small one. Will she be coming back? I part of me hopes not, because she's that much more effective with what we get to see... ya know? Right now I'm really REALLY annoyed with Kondo. I mean, Tsune is such a sweet girl and yet I'm never convinced that he loves her. First, he's in love with Soji's sister, but gets married because of the circumstances. And now! When Tsune revealed to Miyuki that Kondo redeemed her because he was in love with her, I cried again. Poor Tsune. A woman should NEVER have to share her husband.

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Wynter wrote:

Yes it was!

Yeah, that's her final scene. Pretty amazing, she won an award for best supporting actress and she was only in what, 2, 3 episodes.

gaijinmark wrote:

Yeah, that's her final scene. Pretty amazing, she won an award for best supporting actress and she was only in what, 2, 3 episodes.

SHE DID?! Wow, that's really something. I wonder what all the other actresses (with greater roles) thought.
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gaijinmark wrote:

Yeah, that's her final scene. Pretty amazing, she won an award for best supporting actress and she was only in what, 2, 3 episodes.

That was a very good scene, one that relied on the actress' abilities rather than force the emotion on us. It was a well deserved award.

The Bakumatsu wasn't anything complicated or difficult to explain. Plain and simple, it was a powergrab, same as the Tokugawa did 250 years prior; same as the Ashikaga Shogunate; and so on as every society in all of history has done. The opening of the borders was really nothing more than the ignition of something that had been there since the Battle of Sekigahara. Likewise, the Shinsengumi wasn't that complicated. They were one side of a civil war. Everyone supported the Emperor, as he was considered a god. The Shinsengumi, as a whole, served the Shogunate as it was their "lord". Kondo and Hijikata were farmers turned samurai who sought to rise through the feudal ranks - the oh-so-important motivation that Shinsengumi! ignored to portray them as angels. That was the driving force behind why they continued fighting until they were utterly wiped out. Take away all the "pep rally cheering" and you see what was really going on: One side was in charge and one side wanted to be. The Shinsengumi, as we most recognize it, fought for the Tokugawa(in charge) to prevent the Choshu(want to be in charge) from taking over. That was their purpose.

"Serving the Emperor" was only a battlecry to rally the masses. Choshu wanted control. Satsuma saw an opportunity and allied with Choshu. They manipulated the new Emperor and initated armed conflict with the Tokugawa to force them out of any political position. In the Meiji Restoration, Emperor Meiji was "in charge", though Satsuma and Choshu were controlling everything. The details of what went on is complicated; the whole of it isn't and can be explained in a nutshell. History isn't complicated; it's really the same thing happening again and again. Only things different are the players.

toyotaku wrote:

They were, at least as a group. In their early years in Kyoto they were charged with guarding certain gates of the imperial palace & enjoyed some imperial favor, but they were funded and answerable to the shogunate via the daimyo of Aizu, Matsudaira Katamori, a powerful shogunate supporter. The problem comes with the factions within the Shinsengumi itself, some members (such as Ito Kashitaro) having ideas similar to intellectuals siding with the Imperialists. (In Ito's case, it's just as much, if not more, a matter of finding a place to promote his ideas.) Actually, the entire bakumatsu period is extremely problematic and impossible to explain in a nutshell... absolutely nothing is black and white. There were so many changes going on in just about every aspect of society, changes that had been brewing decades before, and the West's demands for port rights only complicated them further and brought things to a head when the Shogun granted access against the Emperor's wishes. It's a fascinating period and makes the US Civil War seem simplistic by comparison.

Kijinnmaru wrote:

That was a very good scene, one that relied on the actress' abilities rather than force the emotion on us. It was a well deserved award. The Bakumatsu wasn't anything complicated or difficult to explain. Plain and simple, it was a powergrab, same as the Tokugawa did 250 years prior; same as the Ashikaga Shogunate; and so on as every society in all of history has done. The opening of the borders was really nothing more than the ignition of something that had been there since the Battle of Sekigahara. Likewise, the Shinsengumi wasn't that complicated. They were one side of a civil war. Everyone supported the Emperor, as he was considered a god. The Shinsengumi, as a whole, served the Shogunate as it was their "lord". Kondo and Hijikata were farmers turned samurai who sought to rise through the feudal ranks - the oh-so-important motivation that Shinsengumi! ignored to portray them as angels. That was the driving force behind why they continued fighting until they were utterly wiped out. Take away all the "pep rally cheering" and you see what was really going on: One side was in charge and one side wanted to be. The Shinsengumi, as we most recognize it, fought for the Tokugawa(in charge) to prevent the Choshu(want to be in charge) from taking over. That was their purpose. "Serving the Emperor" was only a battlecry to rally the masses. Choshu wanted control. Satsuma saw an opportunity and allied with Choshu. They manipulated the new Emperor and initated armed conflict with the Tokugawa to force them out of any political position. In the Meiji Restoration, Emperor Meiji was "in charge", though Satsuma and Choshu were controlling everything. The details of what went on is complicated; the whole of it isn't and can be explained in a nutshell. History isn't complicated; it's really the same thing happening again and again. Only things different are the players.

Wow, thanks guys. Most of what you two said fits together, so that's good. I understood the premise of Shinsengumi, I was just confused as to where their loyalty was. I think I get it now.
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Anime Dad wrote:

I've found Atsu-hime to be really helpful in my understanding of that period in Japanese history (which I have very little knowledge of).

There's also something called a history book, y'know.

bmwracer wrote:

There's also something called a history book, y'know.

I actually went to the local library looking for one, but they had a limited collection on Japanese History.

There's nothing wrong with asking peers for information.
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Wynter wrote:

I actually went to the local library looking for one, but they had a limited collection on Japanese History. There's nothing wrong with asking peers for information.

Where's our resident Japanese history buff, kitakaze??

He'd be a wealth of info in this area, I'd think.

bmwracer wrote:

Where's our resident Japanese history buff, kitakaze?? He'd be a wealth of info in this area, I'd think.

DUDE! Whatever happened to him?!

I remember you brought him back after a long absence, and he stayed, but then left again. I think he discontinued his blog, as well.
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Wynter wrote:

DUDE! Whatever happened to him?! I remember you brought him back after a long absence, and he stayed, but then left again. I think he discontinued his blog, as well.

I'll have to e-mail him right now just to check up on the guy.