I think the creation of any new threads (aside from maybe the Buy, Sell, Trade forum) should require permission from one of the mods or possibly allow ONLY the mods the capability of creating new threads.
That would prevent threads from being started by spammers or bots.
Does this phpBB software allow thread creation control in any way??
I think if you looked over the course of a day or even a week, nearly everyone (essentially the regulars) posts on existing threads, so blocking new thread creation shouldn't be very painful at all, huh?
I think the creation of any new threads (aside from maybe the Buy, Sell, Trade forum) should require permission from one of the mods or possibly allow ONLY the mods the capability of creating new threads.
That would prevent threads from being started by spammers or bots.
Does this phpBB software allow thread creation control in any way??
I think if you looked over the course of a day or even a week, nearly everyone (essentially the regulars) posts on existing threads, so blocking new thread creation shouldn't be very painful at all, huh?
Well, I'm against it just on the principle that I think restricting users has a stultifying effect on creativity and openness of discussion. And I have created a thread or two in the past. But I wouldn't bother if I had to ask permission.
Well, I'm against it just on the principle that I think restricting users has a stultifying effect on creativity and openness of discussion. And I have created a thread or two in the past. But I wouldn't bother if I had to ask permission.
I think if you were to log all of the new threads that were started, you'll find that most (all?) of them were a result of people not reading the posting guidelines and/or not using the search engine... And it's usually done by noobs.
The only forum I've seen where new threads are commonplace and okay is the Buy, Sell, Trade forum.
If you want, I can log all of the new threads started and give actual statistical results to back up my request.
Genma, is there way to add a button for the mods to move individual posts to other threads?
The split/move feature is pretty useless with threads that have many many pages: it takes forever to load all those pages and then select those few that you want to cut and merge into another thread... It just doesn't work.
I think if you were to log all of the new threads that were started, you'll find that most (all?) of them were a result of people not reading the posting guidelines and/or not using the search engine... And it's usually done by noobs.
The only forum I've seen where new threads are commonplace and okay is the Buy, Sell, Trade forum.
If you want, I can log all of the new threads started and give actual statistical results to back up my request.
Well I respectfully disagree, for a variety of reasons. It wouldn't make sense to gather statistics if we disagree upfront about whether a topic is justified or not.
And that's kind of what I'm getting at. I'd like to see this site allow a wider variety of topics, and have the mods relax how topics are currently coalesced. I think it's currently too rigid, and allowing a wider variety of topics would encourage freedom of expression which is the lifeblood of sites that rely on user created content like this one does.
I could write lots more on this topic, but not sure if I should.
And that's kind of what I'm getting at. I'd like to see this site allow a wider variety of topics, and have the mods relax how topics are currently coalesced. I think it's currently too rigid, and allowing a wider variety of topics would encourage freedom of expression which is the lifeblood of sites that rely on user created content like this one does.
Well, I can try. Not sure if I'll be persuasive, but I hope.
Basically, classification is non-trivial problem. A post may actually be about more than one topic, and so it doesn't fit easily into any one single "bucket". And a post may mention an existing topic without actually being about that topic. Deciding how to classify a post isn't always straightforward, and this leads me to the belief that in the end, it's best, when in doubt, to let the user classify a post, instead of having the mods step in. I'll proceed by some examples.
If I make a new topic "Gosh, YamaP is so cool", and gush about his coolness, then by all means, let's merge that into the general YamaP thread.
If I make a topic about "YamaP's new haircut", well, we have the YamaP thread or the hairdo thread ... which should we put it in? We end up just picking whichever may seem most relevant. Not hard, but still, the original poster probably ought to be given a choice, instead of having a mod decide for them.
If I make a post "YamaP is an exemplary idol for his humanitarian work" and talk about how wonderful his work is getting all those Russian teenagers to stop sniffing glue and buy his CDs instead ... well perhaps we have a new topic here. It could be interesting to discuss humanitarian work by idols, (although, perhaps there won't be much material. it's just a hypothetical). Anyway, if we just look at the subject, see YamaP and say "off to the YamaP thread with thou", we may be misconstruing the intent of the original poster. Perhaps they wanted to compare and contrast YamaP's humanitarian work, with, say Bill Gates, or other idols. What if, instead, the poster had titled the post "Humanitarian work by idols", but made the first post mostly about YamaP? It seems to me, that would be a legitimate topic for discussion, and while the initial focus is on YamaP, there's obviously room to expand on other idols that do humanitarian work.
I think that this kind of topic creation should be encouraged as I believe it would lead to more lively and varied discussion.
But under current conventions, I suspect that post would be sorted off to the YamaP thread.
In comparison to other discussion systems, forums, Usenet, and so on, it seems to me that it's not very common to see topic creation limited to moderators.
Of course, up until now, I have been ignoring the problem of stupid or duplicate topic creation. That is a problem, but I think that it is best addressed by changes to the User Interface (Genma willing), and not by having moderators enforce rules.
The fewer rules mods have to enforce, the fewer instances of possible conflict between user and moderator, yields a more harmonious and nurturing environment for creative expression.
At least that this one fool's opinion.
I could write more ... but I'm sure everyone's bored by now.
Joined: 23 Oct 2005 Posts: 5928 Location: San Francisco, CA Country:
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:04 am Post subject:
^^^ i don't think there's a yamapi thread.. there's one that is merged with the NEWS thread.. since mods have convened late last year and closed all threads that are solely directed to members of JE. it creates an order... but since this was implemented, i never had the appetite to keep up with news on the guy since there's a gazillion pages on the news thread to weed thru before you get info on him.. you may put your search skills to use, by looking at the dramas that he's currently starring in... for sure, there's a thread for that.
^^^ i don't think there's a yamapi thread.. there's one that is merged with the NEWS thread..
True, but I was just honking about YamaP purely as a hypothetical.
But that example, of merging the individual artists into one thread does bring up an objection I have, that perhaps we share, which is that they are individual artists in their own right. And people ought to be able to discuss any individual artist apart from the group they are in.
For instance, I like Ninomiya Kazunari as a comedic actor, but I would never listen to Arashi or want to read anything about Arashi. So I'll never visit the Arashi thread to see what people are saying about his acting ... if they are saying anything at all.
A post may actually be about more than one topic, and so it doesn't fit easily into any one single "bucket". And a post may mention an existing topic without actually being about that topic. Deciding how to classify a post isn't always straightforward, and this leads me to the belief that in the end, it's best, when in doubt, to let the user classify a post, instead of having the mods step in. I'll proceed by some examples.
If I make a new topic "Gosh, YamaP is so cool", and gush about his coolness, then by all means, let's merge that into the general YamaP thread.
If I make a topic about "YamaP's new haircut", well, we have the YamaP thread or the hairdo thread ... which should we put it in? We end up just picking whichever may seem most relevant. Not hard, but still, the original poster probably ought to be given a choice, instead of having a mod decide for them.
If I make a post "YamaP is an exemplary idol for his humanitarian work" and talk about how wonderful his work is getting all those Russian teenagers to stop sniffing glue and buy his CDs instead ... well perhaps we have a new topic here. It could be interesting to discuss humanitarian work by idols, (although, perhaps there won't be much material. it's just a hypothetical). Anyway, if we just look at the subject, see YamaP and say "off to the YamaP thread with thou", we may be misconstruing the intent of the original poster. Perhaps they wanted to compare and contrast YamaP's humanitarian work, with, say Bill Gates, or other idols. What if, instead, the poster had titled the post "Humanitarian work by idols", but made the first post mostly about YamaP? It seems to me, that would be a legitimate topic for discussion, and while the initial focus is on YamaP, there's obviously room to expand on other idols that do humanitarian work.
I think that this kind of topic creation should be encouraged as I believe it would lead to more lively and varied discussion.
But under current conventions, I suspect that post would be sorted off to the YamaP thread.
I get the jist of your concerns. And it's a valid one.
The big problem is trying to determine the intent of the poster and sorting/filing it into the correct bin. I don't think this forum or most others, for that matter, have the resources or software (correct me on this if I'm wrong) to handle this task. If you notice, I'm pretty much the only mod who's here a good deal of the time (what does that say about my life? ) and I can't possibly wade through every individual post (nor do I have the inclination)... It's a big task.
For the sake of expediency, we have to make relatively quick assumptions on newly created threads and file/merge/move them accordingly. Not perfect, but the most efficient, I think.
Quote:
In comparison to other discussion systems, forums, Usenet, and so on, it seems to me that it's not very common to see topic creation limited to moderators.
It was only a suggestion of mine... I see it as a quick solution to inhibiting spammers as well.
Quote:
Of course, up until now, I have been ignoring the problem of stupid or duplicate topic creation. That is a problem, but I think that it is best addressed by changes to the User Interface (Genma willing), and not by having moderators enforce rules.
How would altering the UI solve/alleviate the problem?
Quote:
The fewer rules mods have to enforce, the fewer instances of possible conflict between user and moderator, yields a more harmonious and nurturing environment for creative expression.
Agreed.
Of course, "I love Yamapi!" is an expression, but hardly creative.
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At least that this one fool's opinion.
I could write more ... but I'm sure everyone's bored by now.
I'm not.
You obviously have a more detailed insight into the inner workings of message boards and the like, so rave on (so to speak)... I'm listening.
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 46182 Location: Los Skandolous, California Country:
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:44 am Post subject:
�� wrote:
True, but I was just honking about YamaP purely as a hypothetical.
But that example, of merging the individual artists into one thread does bring up an objection I have, that perhaps we share, which is that they are individual artists in their own right. And people ought to be able to discuss any individual artist apart from the group they are in.
For instance, I like Ninomiya Kazunari as a comedic actor, but I would never listen to Arashi or want to read anything about Arashi. So I'll never visit the Arashi thread to see what people are saying about his acting ... if they are saying anything at all.
it was the moderators here who previously decided that famous members of such musical groups be discussed under the umbrella of their group associations....
it used to be as you suggested and i wasn't happy about the decision but i know as a matter of forum economy it did make moderating those threads easier for the those responsible.
as with SMAP, there used be individual threads for kimura, goro, nakai, tsuyoshi, shingo.....
[...]
(about limiting topic creation to mods)
It was only a suggestion of mine... I see it as a quick solution to inhibiting spammers as well
[...]
How would altering the UI solve/alleviate the problem?
[...]
You obviously have a more detailed insight into the inner workings of message boards and the like, so rave on (so to speak)... I'm listening.
I understand you work hard as a mod. Good on ya, as the Aussies, say. But I'd like to make your job easier.
As for spammers, they can be fairly easily discouraged by a change in UI (as suggested by someone else, by using captcha, or likewise), relieving some burden from the mods. Of course, this is dependent on Genma conjuring the solution
As for unwanted topic creation, I believe that is also largely solvable by changes in UI. Here's a quick proposal for your consideration:
Put noobs in a probationary period before they have created N topics, such that after they've created N topics, we think the average noob will have learned how to properly classify their post. I think it should be a small number, like 3. but it can be changed should we find it takes 10 or whatever.
During the probationary period, the user can create a new topic, but the first page they see after clicking on the "New Topic" button is not the submission form, it is instead, a short page that says
"1. Do not create duplicate topics, use Search to see if a topic already exists that would be a good place to put your post.
2. Read the stickies in this forum before you post your new topic
Click BUTTON to continue to create your new topic". If they click the button, they go to the post submission form and proceed as usual.
Very short and sweet, with the links to the appropriate resources.
Noobs would see this noob screen, only when posting a new topic during their probationary period.
It would probably require writing one new CGI and adding one new field to the database (number of topics posted by this user). If adding a new field is too much of a pain, and it could be, then using the total number of posts per user would probably suffice, perhaps just make the limit a little higher.
The idea is that the UI forces the user to follow the intended path, and it does so in a clear and concise manner. There may be other or better ways to do this, but I think what I have outlined will work reasonably well.
I believe the current problem with noobs creating unwanted threads is that they simply overlook instructions. They see the "New Topic" button and reach for it instinctively like a baby reaches for something big and shiny. Noobs need to be hit in the face with obviousness.
it used to be as you suggested and i wasn't happy about the decision but i know as a matter of forum economy it did make moderating those threads easier for the those responsible.
I do not understand how that makes moderation easier, could you elaborate?
And just to throw this out to anyone concerned ... I think the more important question is whether it is better for the users/site. If moderation becomes difficult, I think solving that as a separate issue is called for.
To get a little silly, if coalescing artists into groups makes things more manageable in some sense, why not coalesce all topics into one? One big topic for everything. Just a silly reductio ad absurdum, but I just use it to illustrate my opinion that it's the wrong direction to go in. I think that having more, varied topics is better for generationg lively discussion.
Well, I hope I haven't rocked the boat too much with my opinions today.
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 46182 Location: Los Skandolous, California Country:
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:27 am Post subject:
�� wrote:
I do not understand how that makes moderation easier, could you elaborate?
well they way i understand it is there are less threads to "manage" because inevitably whether ppl appreciate this or not inappropriate content spread across several threads is more timeconsuming to cull than messages in fewer threads.
i preferred the individual threads myself but when you bifurcate every group into individual threads it does make the moderators' job more difficult because they then have to monitor more threads.
and let's be honest here.....separating out all these threads is only going to cater to the fangirl segment of our current membership, in practical terms....not that anything is wrong with that...anybody with a brain, some experience here and an easily acquired faciility can figure where things are.....ppl are just lazy.
as discussed above...the creation of new threads is not anathema in and of itself but the majority of new threads are created without rhyme or reason ...as suggested new rules implemented to control this as it pertains to new members is the best course of action in my opinion.
i don't find the discussion here lacking in terms of energy or verve....quantity of discussion doesn't necessarily equal quality.
on another tangent...i still think we should truncate the MASSES of users here who don't post...why keep their accounts active....it's meaningless.
well they way i understand it is there are less threads to "manage" because inevitably whether ppl appreciate this or not inappropriate content spread across several threads is more timeconsuming to cull than messages in fewer threads.
i preferred the individual threads myself but when you bifurcate every group into individual threads it does make the moderators' job more difficult because they then have to monitor more threads.
I guess I still don't understand. Whether there are 10 new posts over 5 threads or 10 new posts over 2 threads, what is the difference in terms of moderation work?
If there is a difference, then I think it would be cooler to try to solve the problem of reducing the moderator's work load, rather than impact on how users use the site. That's the bias of my philosophy.
One feature that I find nice at d-addicts is the "report" button. This allows users to report abusive posts to the mods. So, perhaps if jdorama had that feature, mods would not have to feel like they have to monitor all the threads, but allow users to assist them by alerting them to abusive posts.
Joined: 15 Jun 2004 Posts: 46182 Location: Los Skandolous, California Country:
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:12 am Post subject:
�� wrote:
I guess I still don't understand. Whether there are 10 new posts over 5 threads or 10 new posts over 2 threads, what is the difference in terms of moderation work?
i am only saying this for the sake of the argument...you honestly think it's easier for a moderator to monitor 10 posts over 5 threads as compared to 10 posts over 2 threads? it's not an a mathematical equivalent. taken to its logical conclusion.....as more and more threads pop up the concern grows.
it's not for me to decide so it's no skin off my back..but as it stands i think this board has waaaay too many useless, unused threads to begin with.....
it only makes it harder for those who have to wade through the detritus to find what they are looking for.
as a basis for discussion...when there are better, more popular doramas out i believe the discussion will increase proportionally....right now much of the stuff out is shiat.
i am only saying this for the sake of the argument...you honestly think it's easier for a moderator to monitor 10 posts over 5 threads as compared to 10 posts over 2 threads? it's not an a mathematical equivalent.
I don't see why. If I wanted to monitor all the new posts, I'd just use the "newposts" link and click on the little arrow icons to get the latest unread postings. With that view on the post data, the number of threads doesn't really matter, just the number of posts. But maybe there is some other work involved that I do not understand. In any case, I still believe that we can reduce the moderator workload, and increase the variety of threads using appropriate UI changes.
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) and I can't possibly wade through every individual post (nor do I have the inclination)... It's a big task.
